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  #21  
Old 03-27-2013, 07:36 AM
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Panther F Panther F is offline
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Such awesome detailed information, right here!

If and when I do get back on my STZ build, I just must build the Barrikady Mantlet as I don't like the Zavod even with the extra armor plate up front.

Hopefully by staying tuned here I may learn some more and maybe push my project ahead.













~ Jeff
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  #22  
Old 03-27-2013, 10:26 AM
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Thanks for the great info Scott. The only change I'm not seeing is the rounded joiner you're talking about at the rear. I've looked and looked at drawings and photos of T-34s....one's known to be STZ models and I don't see what anyone is talking about in the rear. I can see there is something different but I cant put my finger on it. If I can get my hands on some steel-type roadwheels then making them look cast isn't a problem...it's getting them in the first place.
The interlocking joints on the glacis and transom wont be a problem to duplicate. I'm still a long ways out from starting on the "tank" part of this model....I just felt like doing an engine and the V-2 looked like fun. Thanks so much for all this great info though!! I'll put it to use.
For now I'm putting my V-2 research to use. Here are a few updated pics of the engine. The intake and exhaust manifolds arent glued on yet....lots of work to do in the valley of the engine yet. The chipping on the valve covers got a little heavy, but I think it looks good though.






Last edited by TankDan; 03-27-2013 at 10:54 AM.
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  #23  
Old 03-27-2013, 01:39 PM
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greybeard greybeard is offline
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You could look here. This is a drawing of an early KhPZ tank, but the front and rear hull are the same for STZ tanks.

http://www.o5m6.de/t-34_1940.html

After the invasion, great efforts were made to simplify the design to increase production. The rounded front and back to the hull were some of the first things to go. That said, all T-34 build at KhPZ in 1940-41 and at STZ in 1941-42 had rounded front and rear joints between upper and lower plates. Zavod No.112 was the first producer to do away with them.

This T-34 was captured by the Finns and used by them for many years. It has been modified in Finnish service, but the basic configuration is unchanged. The hull is from either KhPZ or an early STZ product (they were identical before Oct-Nov 1941.) The louvered intakes disappeared after August 1941. The wheels and tracks are from later tanks and not typical. The rounded beam on the front and back is typical of both KhPZ and STZ T-34s. The turret on this tank is from STZ, manufactured sometime between September 1941 and April 1942.

Here are some drawings:

KhPZ




STZ (1941)




STZ (1942)



Krasnoe Sormovo (1942)




Krasnoe Sormovo (1943)




Krasnoe Sormovo (1944 - T-34-85)





UTZ Hull (1942-43)




T-34-85 Hulls UTZ(19) and Krasnoe Sormovo (20) 1944-45



The images are not the best quality, but the information is there. They are by Sergei Kirsanov, originally published in his book "Sniza doverkhu" (Сниза доверху) from Frontline Illustrated and reprinted in Tankomaster magazine. They are also in one of the WM books I mentioned.

HTH
Scott Fraser
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Last edited by greybeard; 03-27-2013 at 02:51 PM.
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  #24  
Old 03-28-2013, 12:21 AM
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OKaaaaaaaaaaay....now I see where you are talking about! I had to open the drawing files in Paint and overlap them to see what all the fuss is about. I thought everyone meant there was a difference in the rear top cover shape, but it's down on the break of the transom plate, where it meets the stern plate!! And on the front too, where the glacias meets the bow plate. Now I get it. I still dont understand what all the fuss is...find a piece of styrene tubing thats the proper radius, cut a pie slice out of it's length, cut back the transom and stern plates so it fits in there and BAM BAM! I get it now though....thank you so much greybeard!! Those drawings and links are tremendous and thank you for sharing them so freely! I search high and low for that kind of reference and cant seem to find it.
The other challenges are the turret...not so tough, and the roadwheels. Perhaps not too hard, but could be spendy. I could try to make masters of the steel roadwheels, but I'll admit thats not my forte, so I think the best way to go is Jeff's suggestion to use the wheels from the 1943 kit. I wish there were more aftermarket items for these kits, and considering their popularity I'm surprised.
Thanks again to everyone for the help so far...you all are helping build this model too!
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  #25  
Old 03-28-2013, 03:53 PM
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I've done this in 1/35 scale, working with DML kits. The STZ T-34s are my favourite because they're the most interesting. The DML kit (#6388) sucks and the easiest way to fix it is to simply build a new hull from slabs of styrene. All the edges are rough-cut except the joint between the upper front plate and roof. The parts fit together as they do, quickly welded (glued) together with very crude welds. It's probably one of the easiest hulls to scratchbuild.

The wheels are straightforward if you can cast parts. This is the UTZ wheel, which is the version included in the (other) kit:



The STZ wheel was almost the same.



It did not have the ring around the radial holes or the fin from there to the hub. These can be removed, carefully, from the kit part and then copies made. FWIW, the hole is 85mm on the UTZ wheel and 90mm on the STZ wheel.

The STZ turret is problematic. Apart from the mantlet and maybe the hatches, the welded STZ turret is smaller and has a completely different shape than the cast turret from Krasnoe Sormovo. Again, though, it is made from flat plates and can made from sheet styrene, suitably bent around the curve in the sides. Alternately, you can use the Krasnoe Sormovo turret without controversy.

Regards
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  #26  
Old 03-28-2013, 03:56 PM
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STZ Turret

Here are some images showing how the turret plates were cut. (STZ is on the right...)







That should keep you from getting bored for a while.

Good luck
Scott Fraser
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Last edited by greybeard; 03-28-2013 at 06:29 PM.
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  #27  
Old 03-28-2013, 04:59 PM
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Wow Scott...again, tremendous material here. Thank you, sincerely. The wheels are the biggest problem in my mind...though the STZ style wheels do have a simpler appearance and wouldn't be too difficult to scratch. I can cast...not very good at it, but I could get it done I think. I'd rather start from the wheels from the 1943 kit and make modifications and cast from there.
The turret scratch could be a lot of work, but not beyond me. I scratchbuilt a turret for my Panther A and am pretty pleased with how it came out. The STZ turret is a little more complicated, but the increase in scale helps with that. Thanks again. Not sure when I'll get back to this...preparing to leave town Monday and will be gone for a week.
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  #28  
Old 03-28-2013, 09:22 PM
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David Diaz David Diaz is offline
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Dan,

Great job on the engine. I like the peeling red paint, looks very good.

Keep up the great work!

dave
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  #29  
Old 03-30-2013, 06:36 PM
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Well, as you've noticed the mods you would need to make are extensive but not "too" tough. I hope I wasn't making it sound like I thought it was next to impossible (though you were initially underestimating what was involved).
In fact it has been done before. John Boyton did this and wrote up an article for Military Modelling, Vol. 35 No, 2. I think you can still get it on line.
Also, the same mods were very popular after DML released their 1/35 T-34-85 all those years ago but before their Model '41 hit the shelves.

BTW, of those drawings Scott posted numbers 7 and 8 or 9 are the ones you most want to reference for the hull. Note that in addition to everything else that's been mentioned here the engine deck covers would need to be modified too. CT3 (that's STZ in Cyrillic lettering by the way ) kept using the early pattern cover throughout their production (as did Krasnoye Sormovo interestingly enough) and it's different in several ways compared from the kit.

The tracks may be an issue too. I "think" Stalingrad only ever used 550mm tracks, plate to start with and then cast "waffles". (Though there are one or two pics of "old soldiers" that had been rebuilt or repaired with the latter 500mm waffles.)

And with some modifications the kit turret could be used. Some changes to casting seams and shape of where the upper and lower sections of the mold met, lose the bolted rear plate, and you'd probably be "good enough" for nearly everyone but real T-34 freaks like Scott and me.

Oh, and I'm sure Greybeard simply mistyped but other than the turret and the fact that it's a T-34 your kit bears little resemblance to a Zavod 112 tank out of the box. Wrong glacis, rear plate, wheels, and engine deck.
As I mentioned it's a more or less UTZ hull but missing the center rear hinge
and two too many bolts. Actually, it's fine for a latter UTZ, or ChTZ, or UZTM, or Factory 174 tank just not an earlier tank with the flat turret.

Anyway, don't give up with this!

Mark
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  #30  
Old 03-30-2013, 10:42 PM
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Thanks Mark, and don't worry...I wont give up on it. Every issue with turning it into an STZ is correctable. The tracks give me some concern, but I can live with them being "incorrect". It's plausible to me that an STZ survivor could have been fitted with the later tracks considering there isn't an aftermarket alternative.
I've actually been in contact with John Boyton...he is the modeler I mentioned that was trying to help me get my hands on some correct road wheels. Great guy...is he here on PA? He must be because he saw my original posting and emailed me out of the blue. It seems some people are watching this project and I'm getting some support to do it.
Concerning the turret, I believe it was Scott who suggested that using the kit turret as-is would not be in conflict with the tank being of STZ origin, and while the Zavod 112 style turret is one of the more attractive turrets that came on the T-34, I've always liked the look of the "typical" STZ welded turret. The drawings he provided are tremendous, and I may attempt to scratch build it, but I may also just modify the kit piece. Havent decided on that yet. I'm just barely beginning to dip my toe into this sea of a project, so bear with me. Thanks for the help and encouragement though!!
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