#1  
Old 05-30-2006, 03:35 AM
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Harry Steen Harry Steen is offline
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Hi guys!

I choose a rather provocative title as I"m very curious on this topic. A lot of people use primer on their late vehicles stating that there was a limitation of color or because there was not enough time or simply because the vehicles wouldn't live long enough to encounter any rust.

Being a German and knowing the "mindset" of my fellow citizens as well as working for the industry I doubt this somewhat.

We prefer doing it (sometimes over-doing it :lol: ) as good as possible - no shortcuts, no deviations. Look at how we packed single grenates for the Tiger!

So I see model vehicles with hard edged camo (which takes its time to produce) and then having the statement that it was too time consuming to put on a 3rd color or finishing the bottom and so on so its kept in primer.

What I would like to collect is all sources (1st account with pictures or eye witness reports) that refer to this topic to get a better picture. Please lets not collect data from someone who knows someone who ....and so on.

As I say right now I'd like to start with the hypothesis that there was no primer vehicles send out (parts like replacement wheels I would not count!).

Any contribution on the primer color itself may be valuable as well because I seem to recall that it was hygroscopic and bright orange-red. Nothing you would like on your tank without covering it.

So hopefully I will see some new arguments or sources ...

Kind regards,
Harry
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Old 05-30-2006, 06:34 AM
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According to Tom Jentz and Hillary Doyle in their Osprey book some Tiger II left the factory wiht dark yellow and olive green sprayed over the red primer.

I dont know all their sources but I trust them.
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Old 05-30-2006, 07:15 AM
FJCabeza FJCabeza is offline
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¿What about this one? Do you think it is a repaint?
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Old 05-30-2006, 07:20 AM
schlichtr schlichtr is offline
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There was a long posting on this very subject over on missing-lynx and the consensus was that there was a mis-interpretation of the orders during translation by the authors mentioned above. It all boiled down to that instead of the factories spraying the whole tank with a base camo color such as dark yellow or green(late war) and then spraying the camo pattern on top of that, instead you spray 33 percent green, 33 percent brown and 33 percent yellow(don't ask where the last 1 percent went, I don't know) thus saving paint in the color of the base coat(yellow or green) which was the reason for the order being given in the first place. Something along those lines anyways. There would be no primer showing. That is what my little brain made out of the whole discussion any way. I could be way out in left field on this though when I should be sitting in the bleachers. Later.

Roy
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Old 05-30-2006, 08:29 AM
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Larry Bates Larry Bates is offline
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Hi Roy,

How would that explain 4 color camo then? This could bust my whole camo scheme on my Panther. :lol: Was this in the Axis DG I assume?
(shoot, there's that word)

Larry
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Old 05-30-2006, 06:25 PM
Andrew Hall Andrew Hall is offline
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I think the origination of some of the stuff in that recent post on ML might have come from me a few years back, certainly I thought my old post was what Rob Galassi (sp?) was referrring to. If the ML search function worked I'd post it to save me writing it all over again but in essence my thoughts are that we as modellers may have misinterpreted what Tom Jentz has written. Red primer certainly seems to have taken on Camelot-like proportions but for the time being let's stick to the facts as presented.

As Harry remarks above, I would love to know where all this exposed red primer stuff originated and I suspect it was in 1995 with the publication of Germanys Panther Tank aka GPT.

In this book TJ quotes from a 31/10/44 memo from a local inspector to a single Panther factory , MNH in Hannover.

Now, can we (at this moment in time) 100% say that this memo applied to every factory producing AFV's? No we can't. We can only say it applied to MNH. As far as I'm aware, this memo is all there is (at this moment in time).

IIRC my other points in my old post were a possible misinterpretation of specific words TJ uses and I quote from GPT " ....camouflage patterns were sparingly applied in patches" and " sparingly painted with patterns directly applied to the red oxide primer utilising (the dunklegelb, green and brown paint paste)". What I was trying to get across is the word patches does not necessarily mean patchily and sparingly might not mean thinly. Sparingly can also mean sensibly or indeed it may mean don't stick on two coats or whatever.

Another interesting remark attributed to Charles Lemons, curator at Fort Knox, was that there may well have been exposed red primer - but where you couldn't see it, like the underside of sponsons or the belly of 234/4's (like Munsters, Harry?). All visible surfaces would be camouflaged.

If the factory was going to have to start spraying the camo schemes then, as anyone who's ever worked in materials planning will know, you need to know how much paint to buy per production unit. This is where the standardised schemes appear as we see on Panther, Tiger II, 234's etc.

As to the colour of red primer, I've seen from a darkish red (under the recently removed exhaust armour covers on Bovvies JT) to a surprisingly bright orange red (inside of Porsche TII engine bay, Panther G).

Hope this makes some sense.

Andrew
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Old 05-30-2006, 07:50 PM
schlichtr schlichtr is offline
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Thanks Andrew, I knew it was something along those lines. So I will claim to have been on 3rd base at least instead of left field(I don't know which is worst).


Roy
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Old 05-31-2006, 02:47 AM
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Thanks guys .... this seems to be a good start.

First to Javier:

This photo was as far as I remember (amongst other publications I assume) presented by Thomas Chory but with a misinterpretation. All photos of this series are repaints from Aberdeen Proving ground.

Andrew: Thanks for this answer. Sadly enough we cannot take the 234 into consideration as it is repainted and some parts have been exchanged and newly painted in modern primer. I know since I spend some time in the dirt beneath the 234 (BTW the Dragon bottom is still not completely right :lol: )

To Janne: When you say on the primer then this would mean it is covered ... so not visible. Can you please check if this is what is written?

Overall I know there have been lot of discussions on ML but for me it seemed that it never went to a bottom line.

1. According to Osprey/Jentz source there have been some Tiger II with yellow and green on top of the primer ?!? which means to me no primer visible - no other vehicles are mentioned anyway - no photos bw or color. Maybe it is my misinterpretation but perhaps Janne can check.

2. There has been one guy interviewed who mentioned the colors should be used sparingly in patches on the primer - means to me cover it! No primer visible.

3. Can somebody comment on 4 color camo???

Anybody still has some first account prove or a definite color photo to prove?
Maybe somebody has still an ace up his sleeve?

Waiting for more to come ....
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Old 05-31-2006, 03:41 AM
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Uruk-Hai Uruk-Hai is offline
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Quote from Ospreys Kingtiger, page 20.

"By an order dated 31 October 1944, Henschel was to cease covering the external surface of the Tigers with a base coat of dark yellow (RAL 7028). Before leaving Henschel, the Tiger IIs were to be painted with a camoflage pattern using patches of dark yellow (RAL 7028), red brown (RAL 8017) and olive green (RAL 6003) applied directly to the basic red oxide primer. If dark yellow was not available, Feldgrau could be used as a substitute, but only sparingly.
Already prior to this order in September 1944, Tiger II had left the factory without the base coat of dark yellow, with large areas of red primer that hadnt been covered with paint. The areas that had been covered had a very thin coat of paint."
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Old 05-31-2006, 04:00 AM
sbuss sbuss is offline
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When Ausbesserungswerk (refurbishing factory) Elbau was overrun early 1945 by the Russians, they found a lot of Sd-Kfz. 251 in different states of production/assembly. Despite it's name, the factory had been used to assemble halftracks, not only for refurbishing.

Some of the hulls (especially front parts), lying outside the factory building and waiting for their turn, are painted in hard-edge camo. Nothing particularly interesting, but the lower half of these hulls is not painted at all, only covered in a very very dark colour. This being a b/w-foto, i can only assume that this might be primer.

You can clearly see this on pictures taken there of some more or less completed halftracks, still on the assembly line (and on the picture of the front parts, of course) - the running gear of these halftracks did not receive additional paint.

These pictures are published in "Panzerwaffe 1945", vol 1 or 2 ( i tend to forget these details). If i am more awake tomorrow than today, maybe i won't forget to take these magazines with me again, as i wanted to scan them (did i talk about forgetting things?).

Hope these helps,

Stefan
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